Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

C2 and C4

Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby HiWind » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:13 am

First - apologies for the long post - ignore if time is short. Just trying to avoid guesswork from respondents.

Thanks for continuing! I should start with a little into: I bought my 1990 C2 with a 412HP (my Bosch dyno) 3.8L engine (993 RS Evo2 Cams etc..).
The car also weighs 1225kg with Recaros, aircon delete, lightweight flywheel, clutch & exhaust and a LSD - in short quite a nice package ;)
It new to me and I'm no expert so forgive any sillyness below .. I'll say thanks now as there's bound to be some :oops:

The RSE (Emulate/Emelia to her friends) has been used almost exclusively as a Auto-X car since 2006 ..
but I want a 50/50 track/road car .. without putting the weight back on. 8-)

The only small inhibitor to this is the off-throttle/low rev/idle performance ie for city driving. Yes, the cams aren't ideal
but they're not monstrous (IMO). The car doesn't idle well when cold and even when hot it sometimes (25% of time) drops off
ie below 500 rpm and then stall after its been driven hard and then comes to a stop ie like after exiting the highway. I have to
ease her down and Heel & Toe a bit to let the revs fall less extremely ie doesn't stall is it falls from 1.5k to 800 but does
if it falls from 3k to below 1k. Fun on the track, tiring in town to say the least.

The root issue in my mind is that the ECU has been unattached (see first 4 pics) with the engine/fuel mgmt
outsourced to an aftermarket solution.
dictator - box and wiring.jpg

The engine was built and installed locally 3 years ago by a guy who has now left a Porsche racing workshop to go to Fiat ..
so no support there. Shame for him :geek: What he did - PO was cutting costs to some degree - was to use a simple but effective
locally made Fuel Mgmt System (FMS)( made by some ex-VW Germans who now live here.
So instead of piggy backing the system on the 964 Motronic ECU, he sliced off the necessary wires, disconnecting the ECU and thus removing
the ECU and its advanced idle mgmt/cold start etc.. as well as all its fault finding ability.

The 2nd set of pics: FMS with its maps controls the idle with a 4mm vacuum hose that is shown in the first collage attached to the throttle body
via the lower piece of blue silicon. Needless to say its not as clever a system as the motronic. My plans - for which I'd love input please! - is to:
1. rewire the ECU back to standard - intermediary step - to ensure it still works. Luckily I have an ex-Motronic tech here.
2. Use front foot well plug and motronic sofwtare to check the ecu/fault codes etc..Considering the 3.8 there shd be a few.
2b. but the worst of it will be (I think) that I dont seem to have an AFM. I can plug the ISV in and I know it works.
3. The tech will then piggy-back the dictator chip next to the ecu and only take the fuel injector wires etc.. out of the ecu
and use a loom that dictator supply ($50) to do so.
4. This way the ECU shd be able to control the ISV/AFM/idle, be used for fault codes on everything other than the fuel mgmt
... knock sensors, ABS being the two principals I've thought of. I'm sure there are a host of others. ABS does work now, just fault codes not available.

Any other experience or insight into this process would be most appreciate from the various ECU/Idle Jedi out there.
PS - I got all the bits that came off the car and I don't see an AFM and the blue pipe between air filter and TB is clearly not stock.
That's where the AFM should be but I don't have an AFM anymore - will engine run without it when I do steps 1,2?

Addition: Seems I shd be fine without the AFM for the intermediate steps

dictator setup collage.jpg
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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby Steve » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:54 am

Wow,.....this one is complicated. :)

JMHO,....................The gent who lashed this whole thing did you no favors whatsoever. I'm unfamiliar with that Engine Management System, but I can tell you that "mergers" or piggybacks onto Motronic systems have far too many compromises to make it all work properly. Such things are sometimes "kluges" and the root source for long term problems.

My very best advice would be to install a Motec M84 Engine Management System since I KNOW that can be made to work very very well. Any time invested in untangling what you have is a zero-sum game, based on personal experiences.

Call me anytime for details. :)
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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby HiWind » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:28 pm

Kluge?? Now I have to give you a call ;)
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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby Steve » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:22 pm

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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby HiWind » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:12 am

so after some expert advice helping me label and place all the wires, I soldered and shrink wrapped the ecu back into the loop.
Effectively the fuel mgmt system now control only the injectors and the timing ie 8 wires instead of the prior 22.
The ecu plug is back in, has all the wires it needs eg RPM and the car started and ran smoothly right away.
ISV plugged back in.
ecu piggyback - step 1-001.JPG
ecu piggback - step 2-001.JPG
Did a 100km run to see what happened and while the car started up much more easily
(ie as soon as key turned, no foot involved etc..) felt smoother at low-mid revs and ran beautifully.
But ... once hot it started idling at 1.8k rpm. This is clearly not ideal.
For one (minor) thing the oil guage is not accurate if revs too high.

But that's where I am after a full morning of soldering. Nice and neat, and got the fuel mgmt box nicely situated next to the ecu.
Also took the Durametric to the ECU and only found faults re the injectors (obviously) and MAF.
MAF - not so sure what the fault was - didn't look into it ... but as I don't have one or an AFM for that matter
(see big blue tube in pics in first post) I'm not surprised. Might this be impacting the idle? Seems to me ISV is just going full open all them time.

So now the question is:
1. why is the revíng high - with ISV disconnect car idles better (ie 900-1000 rpm) but stalls sometimes (feels like LWF type stall) and doesn't start as easily.
2. could ISV be faulty/damaged? Guess I could check that by swapping out with a friend.
3. ironically now that I better understand the process ... it seems less perfect ie are there really any benefits to having the ecu wired back up - how would knock sensors etc.. be able to do anything if the injectors aren't accesible via ecu?
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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby Steve » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:18 pm

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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby HiWind » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:36 pm

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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby Steve » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:56 pm

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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby HiWind » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:59 am

Steve I cleaned out the ISV and the two pipes connected to it ie air pipes - quite oily dirty and definitely moves more freely now
when rotated in my hand ..but no impact on the 1.8k idle. I did notice this tho - see pic. Must be a throttle posi sensor as its
on the TB opposit side fromt he throttle cable and has a small connection at its rear which moves with the throttle cable.
It is just below the ISV. Is this a stock part? It is 3 pin. Is it the throttle posi sensor?
964 throttle position sensor.jpg
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Re: Piggy Backing a Fuel Mgmt System on the ECU for a 3.8L

Postby Steve » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:39 pm

That may be the OEM part, however I'd need more, and sharper pics to confirm,...:)
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